Ep. 29: Life’s a Breech

Shanna Micko: Welcome to Big Fat Positive with Shanna and Laura. This week we’ve got our weekly check-ins, we have our special segment called, They Said What?! and we wrap up with our BFPs and BFNs. Let’s get started.

[Music]

Shanna Micko: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 29.

Laura Birek: Hello, everyone.

Shanna Micko: Hello. Let’s start off with our weekly check-ins. Laura, where are you?

Laura Birek: I am at 36 weeks.

Shanna Micko: Holy smokes.

Laura Birek: Yes, indeed. This is the real home stretch. I feel like stretch is the keyword in my stomach right now.

Shanna Micko: Yeah.

Laura Birek: It is tight and, what’s my check-in? I got sick. I mentioned last week that I was starting to get sick. Well, I got full blown sick. You can probably still hear it in my voice and let me tell you, being sick and 36 weeks pregnant at the same time is not fun.

Shanna Micko: No, it’s the most uncool thing I can think of.

Laura Birek: The thing that really sucks is the coughing, because I think we talked about this many, many weeks ago when you were sick. The fact that there’s basically nearly a full-term baby in my stomach sitting on top of my bladder and then you have a coughing fit means there’s no amount of kegels. Everyone’s like, “Do your pelvic floor exercises.” No, it’s not physically possible to control that. I’ve got the Poise pads at the ready. Thank goodness for Amazon’s same day delivery. Let me tell you, there’s something really nice about not having to actually go to the store and buy your incontinence pads. Although at this point I’ve lost all vanity. I’m just like, look, I’m fucking nine months pregnant basically at this point.

Shanna Micko: Exactly. Anything goes.

Laura Birek: That’s just been a kind of a bummer, but otherwise things are good except for, guess where my baby’s head is?

Shanna Micko: Same place.

Laura Birek: Same exact fucking place right up under my ribs. He’s still breach, so my C-section is still scheduled. I’m going to the chiropractor. I was going to keep swimming but to try to float him out of my pelvis and float him around, but then I got sick. 

You can’t go to the pool when you’re sick.

Shanna Micko: True. Bummer!

Laura Birek: So that was out.

Shanna Micko: You said you float around in your bathtub?

Laura Birek: Is my bathtub deep enough to float?

Shanna Micko: I don’t know.

Laura Birek: I don’t think it is. Mine is a very small bathtub. I don’t have one of those big Jacuzzi tubs. So I have been trying to do a lot of hot showers. I know they say you’re not supposed to do long hot showers, but honestly, I don’t think the shower gets hot enough to be an issue.

Shanna Micko: No.

Laura Birek: Also, one time I did take a really long hot shower, because it just felt so good and I was like, “Oh, fuck. Did I kill the baby?” The usual thoughts you have after a long shower. So I took my temperature, because that’s the thing they worry about is that you don’t want to raise your body temperature above 100 degrees or something.

Shanna Micko: I don’t know the exact temperature. That’s a good question.

Laura Birek: You basically don’t want to give yourself a fever, because that’s bad for the baby’s development. I took my temperature and it was 99.1 as opposed to the usual 98.6. So I was like, okay, hot showers are okay. I think I’ll be fine, so I’ve been doing a lot of hot showers. The steam has been helping and then I have a little bench in my shower, so I’ll do kind of like a half downward dog on there and that really helps relax. We’re trying to get him to move. We’ll see.

Shanna Micko: He’s got a couple weeks.

Laura Birek: He’s got three weeks exactly.

Shanna Micko: That’s right. The good news is if you do your scheduled C-section, you will go to 39 weeks, which is, I know what you have secretly/not so secretly been wanting to do.

Laura Birek: Not very secret. I didn’t want a C-section necessarily, but I’m also not torn up about it. What’s funny is I’ll actually be 38 weeks in six days, because I turn 39 weeks on a Saturday. I don’t think my doctor cares about that one day.

Shanna Micko: That’s good.

Laura Birek: But I will not have to be pregnant to 41 weeks like some people, which is I could be pregnant less time, but now I’m like, uh-oh! That means one less week of preparations.

Shanna Micko: That’s true. Although at least you know in advance you can kind of wrap your head around it and stuff and reframe your timeline.

Laura Birek: This is true and for all I know, I could go into labor early and then I’m really screwed, but that’s the end of my check-in really. How are you doing? How old is your baby now?

Shanna Micko: She’s 12 or 13 days. I’m okay. Man, it’s rough. I know last week I was filled with adrenaline and stuff and once I came home, I still have a good amount of adrenaline depending on how much sleep I have, but also just huge emotions. It’s hormonal. It’s lack of sleep. It’s everything and I’m just up and down and one minute I’ll just look at my baby’s face and burst into tears, because I am overcome with love and then another minute I’ll burst into tears, because my other daughter doesn’t want to give me a hug and I’m like, “Oh my God. It’s like I’ve ruined my relationship with her.” Then I am worried that my baby’s not doing well, because she lost some birth weight. It’s up and down.

Laura Birek: But they always lose birth weight, right?

Shanna Micko: Yeah, especially when they’re breastfed, but that’s something that was going on this week is a lot of trips to the pediatrician because she lost about 8% of her body weight, which is they weren’t worried about that. 

They’re allowed to lose up to 10%, but on three subsequent visits, she didn’t gain anything at all and they were wanting her to gain half an ounce to an ounce a day and she wasn’t and she was a very sleepy breast feeder and I’m like, oh my God, I’m not doing enough to keep my child healthy and it gave me flashbacks to my first kid, which breastfeeding was so hard with her. It brings up a lot of feelings of insecurity for me that I’m not doing a good enough job, which is crazy, because I’m literally spending like 10 hours a day doing this. Because each feeding takes like an hour, because she’s so sleepy on each side and then they got to do a diaper change if they poop in the middle of it and up all night. I’m dedicating so much time to this and then for them to be like, “She hasn’t gained any weight.” I’m like, “Fuck!”

Laura Birek: It’s like your metrics are off your workplace output.

Shanna Micko: Yes, so now I’m supplementing her with expressed milk. If she’ll do a feeding and then I’ll give her a little bit extra in a bottle and doing a lot of things to try to bulk her up a little bit. We’re going to go back after Christmas and see if she’s gained any weight.

Laura Birek: Well, I’m sure you are working very hard to do everything you can and I’m sure she’ll be fine. But we’ll have to keep posted. She’s on you right now, right? You’re recording with her.

Shanna Micko: Yes, I’ve got this cool little wrap. It’s called the Boba Wrap. I saved it from my first and it’s so cute. It’s this big cloth thing that you wrap around your body and then tuck them in like a little kangaroo pocket. It’s just so sweet. I love wearing the baby. It’s so sweet to have her so close.

Laura Birek: Aww.

Shanna Micko: She’s snoozing right now. She might wake up soon. You might hear her cry.

Laura Birek: I don’t want her to cry, but I do want to hear her, because I love the little newborn noises.

Shanna Micko: I know. What else? That’s about it. Having two kids is hard.

Laura Birek: It is?

Shanna Micko: It’s a lot harder than having one believe it or not.

Laura Birek: Would you say it’s exponentially harder?

Shanna Micko: Yeah, it’s really hard, especially because I’m recovering from a C-section too. I can’t pick her up. I can’t do anything really to help her and everything hurts and I’m on medication and it’s a really tough time. Did you hear that? Hi, honey.

Laura Birek: Aww.

Shanna Micko: The first couple weeks are really just very challenging and I’m doing my best.

Laura Birek: You sound good.

Shanna Micko: Thanks. I got a lot better sleep last night and the night before I probably got like two hours total. Last night, both kids actually slept.

Laura Birek: Hallelujah.

Shanna Micko: I took a shower and I even put on some makeup for the first time in a couple weeks, because I have got family and stuff coming over and I was like, I want to feel fresh.

Laura Birek: You got to look fancy fresh.

Shanna Micko: Did you have a bad dream? I think it’s almost feeding time. I might have to transition out of the Boba Wrap into My Brest Friend breastfeeding pillow. You got one of those, did you?

Laura Birek: Yes.

Shanna Micko: Those are the best.

Laura Birek: Did you bring it to the hospital?

Shanna Micko: I did. I did not use it, because it was awkward in the hospital bed and my incision and everything just hurt way too much to have that thing strapped around my center. So I used like a bunch of pillows.

Laura Birek: I was thinking I’d leave it at home and just not bother in the hospital with it. Cool.

Shanna Micko: All right. But that’s pretty much my check-in. Let’s move on.

Laura Birek: Let’s do it.

[Music]

Laura Birek: Okay. Our next segment is, They Said What, where we go over some of the strange and unusual and shocking things that people say to us during pregnancy and now early motherhood. Shanna, has anyone said anything special to you lately?

Shanna Micko: Yes, very special. I wouldn’t categorize this as necessarily shocking or anything, but it’s something that rubbed me the wrong way. When I was in the hospital and struggling with breastfeeding, I asked for the lactation consultant to come visit me and she did and she was very nice and helpful and she was asking me about my experience breastfeeding with my first child. I went, “I breastfed for six months,” which to me feels like a triumph, because we struggled a lot and she said, “Was that exclusively breasted?” 

I was like, “Yeah, for the first three months and then we started supplementing with formula,” and she’s like, “Why did you supplement with formula?” Inside I just lost it. A) Why is this even relevant to my new child? So now I’ve got someone questioning something I did three years ago about a topic I’m already sensitive about and I just did not want to have that conversation with this woman. Honestly, the truth is I got tired of feeding my child around the clock and pumping around the clock. It’s a ton of work and so I just said the first thing that came to my mind and I said, “Well, my supply kind of started drying up a little bit.” I just threw it out there. She just started 20 questions like, “Why did your supply start drying up? Did you go back to work?” At the time, I was working from home, so no, I didn’t go back to work. So I was like, “No.” She’s like, “Did you have diabetes?”

Laura Birek: Oh my God.

Shanna Micko: “No.” She’s like, “Did you have a thyroid problem?” Like throwing out every medical condition she could think of. She just really wanted to solve this puzzle of why I failed and switched to formula and I just took it so personally and was so not into this conversation. I feel like I closed the door on this chapter of my life three years ago. I struggled breastfeeding. I struggled to figure out a perfect time for me to end and I finally felt good about it and now she’s like questioning me about it. I was just like, “No, no, no.” Okay. So how helping me with what’s going on right now? I was trying everything I could to close the door on that conversation with her and move on to what I needed, which was help feeding the baby in front of me.

Laura Birek: The infant at hand, if you will.

Shanna Micko: So frustrating. Oh my God.

Laura Birek: Did she help you with the current infant or was it just all an interrogation on your past failures?

Shanna Micko: She finally did mostly, because she gave me what I wanted, which was a nipple shield.

Laura Birek: There you go.

Shanna Micko: They were hurting so bad. I was crying. Especially the left one, my baby could not latch on. She was trying again and again, and trying to latch on is basically like chomping on your nipple again and again, and it was searing pain to the point where I was crying and so I was like, can I see this lactation consultant? Then she came in and gave me the fifth degree about my past and now she’s like, “So you want a nipple shield?” I’m like, “Yeah, I’m in tears.” I used one with my first. That’s how I knew about it and I knew it was helpful for me.

Laura Birek: It’s like a thing you put over your nipple. So your nipple just comes out or like how does that work?

Shanna Micko: It covers your nipple too. It’s like a round really thin plastic disc and your nipple goes into part of the plastic and then that little plastic has a few holes in it. 

It’s kind of like a bottle nipple really.

Laura Birek: Okay.

Shanna Micko: But when she latches on, it’s easier for her to latch on and she’s chomping a little piece of plastic instead of my direct skin.

Laura Birek: I can see the benefit of that.

Shanna Micko: The funny thing is this is like so TMI. Like the right side, she can latch on fine. That nipple’s 100%. I don’t know why. The left one, not so much. So I’m in tears, I’m crying. They always try to fix the latch, because they don’t think you know what you’re doing, which I didn’t the first time around. But this time I’m a little more experienced. I’m like, I know the latch is good on this side. Anyways, she finally conceded and she’s like, “It sounds like you need a nipple shield.” I’m like, “No, shit. Lady, give it to her!”

Laura Birek: Are these lactation consultants like RNs? What are their qualifications?

Shanna Micko: I have no idea. That beats me, man. But I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines they have to follow, especially being in the hospital. Especially the nurses too, because I first asked my nurse for a nipple shield and she was like, “I don’t know and I’m not supposed to give you one. If you use one, you’re going to have to pump, because it’s not effective and all these crazy things.”

Laura Birek: Wow. There’s so much baggage. I feel like it’s similar to the C-section thing where clearly there was a trend away from breastfeeding and there was a trend to do more C-sections and it got too far and so now we’re correcting, but there’s this overcorrection where it’s like, look, if you can’t breastfeed, you can’t breastfeed. What are you supposed to do? Or if you needed that damn nipple shield, is that the worst thing in the world? We just want the baby to be fed and you to not be crying, because you’re in so much pain.

Shanna Micko: I know. So now I’m like all paranoid too. I’m like using the nipple shield is the wrong thing for me to do. I’ve got to wean her off it. It’s ruining my supply and it sends you into a tailspin of wondering if you’re doing the right or wrong thing. I understand they’re trying to be helpful on one hand, but also, it can be harmful in some ways.

Laura Birek: I think it’s just like, whatever you need to do to survive, you do it. You and the baby be healthy and then everyone else’s judgment of what you should and shouldn’t do needs to fly out the window because…

Shanna Micko: Anyways, that’s my saga. What has someone said to you recently?

Laura Birek: Well, so mine is similarly not like a so hilarious or so shocking thing, but it’s a thing that has been rubbing me the wrong way. I think annoyance is like our theme right now.

Shanna Micko: I think so.

Laura Birek: Like our patience has worn completely thin or has gone out the window. My baby’s been moving around a ton in my stomach in a very visible way.

Shanna Micko: That’s crazy.

Laura Birek: I think it’s because his head is right up under my ribs. It looks like that scene where the alien comes out of your stomach. So I posted an Instagram story of my stomach moving around and then I posted a continuation of it and just wrote a caption that was like, “I’m a little scared,” and I had the GIF of the alien guy.

Shanna Micko: That’s right. I saw that. That was funny.

Laura Birek: Thank you. I thought it was funny.

Shanna Micko: No, did that rub someone the wrong way?

Laura Birek: Yes, it did.

Shanna Micko: Oh, dear.

Laura Birek: So I got a message from a family friend who’s like an older woman. She has kids of her own. 

She’s probably in her late mid-seventies maybe and her response was, “Don’t be scared. It’s a wonderful feeling.”

Shanna Micko: Oh, God.

Laura Birek: For some reason, now that I say it out loud, it does kind of sound benign, but I was fucking pissed when I saw this message, because I was like, you are literally telling me how to feel right now. You saw that and first of all, I was trying to be funny and it looks weird and it is a very strange feeling. This is my first baby, so it’s very hard for me also to connect that there’s this human that I’m going to love more than anyone in the world that’s doing this to me right now. For me, it’s just shit, my stomach is moving on its own. This has never happened to me before and it’s like kind of uncomfortable. I have no control over where he moves and sometimes it’s into organs that don’t feel good. So I’m like, I should be allowed to think this is weird, but she’s not the only one. It’s really interesting. Actually, there is a bit of a generational thing, because I had a lot of friends also comment on the Instagram story who are moms. They’ve had pregnancies, so they’ve gone through it themselves and they were like, “Yeah, it’s fucking weird. Isn’t it?”

Shanna Micko: Right.

Laura Birek: But they’re younger. Maybe it’s because they’re closer to it or maybe it’s because our generation is allowed to have a bit more complex feelings towards motherhood than I think earlier.

Shanna Micko: That’s what I was going to say is I don’t think that’s something they maybe were really given the freedom to think or make a judgment of.

Laura Birek: Yeah, maybe, because I was just like, really? I’m just sitting here first of all trying to make something funny out of this weird situation and also, I have a thing with Instagram, which is I don’t want to be super fucking boring on Instagram. So I’m trying to make it an entertaining post. It felt like scolding like I’m not feeling right about it and I’m so over that shit. I feel like I’ve gotten a lot of that nothing quite so demonstrative is like, no, you’re thinking about it wrong. It’s a wonderful feeling. You’re wrong. Don’t be scared. A lot of people will be like, “I just can’t help, but think of it as anything but a miracle,” and I just feel like you get all these messages. People keep saying that stuff to you. “Isn’t the most wonderful feeling in the world,” people kept saying that to me. I don’t know if you got that a lot. When you’re like, “The baby’s moving.” They’re like, “Isn’t it the most wonderful feeling in the world?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” It’s weird to me and I think it’s an interesting feeling and it’s reassuring I guess, because I’m a worrier and it’s nice to know that he’s moving around in there. But the most wonderful feeling in the world? I can think of others.

Shanna Micko: Like eating a chocolate croissant.

Laura Birek: Delicious. Warm up to 30 seconds in the microwave.

Shanna Micko: I think you hit the nail in the head with people having the children already and having some hindsight. Once you have that kid and then you can piece together, this is the little nugget that was kicking inside of me. You reframe that experience, because I’ve already done that with my new daughters like, “You were the one kicking me and swirling around,” and it feels more nostalgic or sweet. But in the moment, like you said, when it’s a little more surreal and distant, because you don’t know who is inside of you yet, it’s just kind of bizarre. I think I agree with you. I also think she totally missed the tongue in cheek tone of your comment on that post.

Laura Birek: I do think there was a cultural reference she missed, which was the alien movie. I don’t think she’s familiar with the Alien franchise.

Shanna Micko: Probably not and probably just took it really, really earnestly that you said you’re scared.

Laura Birek: Maybe she probably did think I was literally scared. I should say I’m not actually scared that this baby is going to explode out the front of my stomach like an alien. I worry about a lot of things. That’s not one of them.

Shanna Micko: Just to set that record straight.

Laura Birek: Please don’t write in and tell me that that’s not going to happen. So it’s sort of that thing and then the collection of basically just throughout your pregnancy, you’re kind of told how you should feel. 

I know that a lot of pregnant women, but I can only speak for myself, but I’ve heard from a lot of people is that it has a silencing effect. Especially, I’m lucky I haven’t experienced any depression yet in this pregnancy, but people with depression during pregnancy and postpartum depression, I think it’s really damaging for them because all these people are coming up to you saying, “Isn’t it the most wonderful thing ever. Isn’t it the most wonderful time?” Internally, they’re thinking, no. I’m fucking depressed. You know what I mean?

Shanna Micko: Having a hard time or doesn’t feel good.

Laura Birek: So I’m all for not sugarcoating it and saying, “Yeah, it feels fucking weird.”

Shanna Micko: Feels weird. It’s not great sometimes.

Laura Birek: Anyway, I think that’s all I care to rant about right now.

Shanna Micko: Okey-dokey. Let’s move on.

[Music]

Shanna Micko: All right. Let’s wrap up the episode with our big fat positives and big fat negatives, BFPs and BFNs. Laura, what have you got for us?

Laura Birek: I have a BFP.

Shanna Micko: Nice.

Laura Birek: Which is Afrin Nasal Spray.

Shanna Micko: Oh God, I love that stuff.

Laura Birek: Okay. It’s a miracle drug.

Shanna Micko: It is.

Laura Birek: Unfortunately, you can only use it for three days before you get dependent on it and have to stop.

Shanna Micko: I was going to say, I had to have a caveat with that because you can back fire and it made me actually more stuffy. But for the first three days, it is a miracle. It’s the only thing I could sleep with when I was sick.

Laura Birek: That’s exactly what I’ve been using it for. So I have a cough and my nose is stuffed up. My nose is especially stuffed up at night. During the day, you can take a Sudafed and that helps. You don’t want to take Sudafed at night and I don’t think Benadryl really does much for my nasal congestion at night. So I finally gave in and was like, I need Afrin and 30 seconds after you squirt it up your nose, suddenly it’s like a massive fog has lifted and you can actually breathe and your sinuses are clear and it lasts 12 hours and it’s safe during pregnancy, according to my doctor at least. You should check with your doctor. I used it for two nights just at night and then I decided to stop. But those two nights were critical, because I needed to sleep and I couldn’t sleep. My nose was so stuffed up and then I would be like, this is getting gross. But the drip in the back of my throat made me cough and then I’d cough all night, then I’d pee and then I’d have to change my fucking pants, because I’d be coughing so much and then I’d have to shower. Afrin, you saved my life two nights in a row.

Shanna Micko: It’s so good.

Laura Birek: I wish you weren’t addictive or I guess it’s not addictive. Technically, it’s dependency creating.

Shanna Micko: The crazy thing about Afrin to me is it kind of changed how I thought about stuffy nose. When I had a stuffy nose, I always thought it’s just jammed full of snot. It’s just like, my head is a backed up dam of snot. But when you put Afrin up there, all of a sudden it all clears up. So I don’t think the snot disappears. I think really what it is is everything’s so inflamed that air can’t come in and out. I literally did not know that about my sinuses until I used Afrin.

Laura Birek: It really is fascinating, because there’s so few medicines that you can feel working so specifically. Like you take some pain killers and eventually your headaches kind of goes away. But you shoot that Afrin up your nose and 30 seconds later, you can feel it.

Shanna Micko: I imagine it’s like the instant high of shooting heroin.

Laura Birek: Also addictive.

Shanna Micko: Don’t try this at home kids. Ask your doctor first.

Laura Birek: I don’t think that’s safe during pregnancy.

Shanna Micko: Asterisk, I’ve never done heroin, especially when pregnant.

Laura Birek: Me either. I’ve actually never even taken an opioid, because I’ve never had big surgery before, so that might change in the next couple weeks. We’ll see. So that’s mine. What do you have? A big fat positive or a big fat negative for us?

Shanna Micko: I have a big fat positive.

Laura Birek: That’s good.

Shanna Micko: I’m trying to focus on the positives. So one thing after you have your baby at the hospital, the nurses will be asking you about every diaper change about every feeding, how long did you feed on the right breast? How long did you feed on the left breast to kind of just check the baby’s progress? Are they peeing enough, pooping enough, eating enough? My husband, Steve and I, we like tracking that kind of data. It just helps us feel better about the baby and give the nurses the answers they want and I like to know how long she’s feeding on each side. Just get an idea. I’m sure there are a lot of apps out there that are made for this kind of thing. But the one that we use I love, we used it for our first as well and it’s just so helpful. It’s called Feed Baby.

Laura Birek: Feed Baby?

Shanna Micko: I love it. It’s really user friendly. You can super quickly start a timer when she’s feeding on your right breast and stop when she’s done and switch over. So I can keep track and every time I feed her, I can quickly look back at the log and see what side did I feed her on last, because you’re supposed to start on that side with the next feeding? We can track diaper changes, because the pediatrician wants to know how many wet ones and how many pupu ones and there’s also a place to chart like if you’re pumping, how many ounces you pump? Her weight, her height, her head circumference. Like any data you want about your baby. It’s great. So if you’re looking for something Laura like that, try Feed Baby. See if you like it and this is not an ad. I swear to God the way I just said that it like, “Try Feed Baby.” It’s not. I just really like it and our use of it tapers off the older she gets and I feel more secure about her diapers and stuff.

Laura Birek: You’re not still tracking your almost three year old’s every trip to the bathroom?

Shanna Micko: No, although I am going to admit something. I’m in such a fog of tracking my new daughter’s poop’s and pee’s that I went pooped the other day and I left the bathroom and I was like, “I got to log that,” and I was like, oh my God, Shanna, you need more sleep.

Laura Birek: You have all the information on your health. No one’s going to judge.

Shanna Micko: Anyway, Feed Baby’s a cool app. I love it.

Laura Birek: Here’s a question. So I know that you are an iPhone user and your husband is an Android user. Can you share data cross-platform like that?

Shanna Micko: Yes, good question. That’s one reason we really love this one too, is that we have the same account and we can sync up between phones and even though he’s Android and I’m iPhone, it works syncing them up.

Laura Birek: Well, I’m sure that’ll be useful information for people, because I know there’s a ton of apps. But I didn’t know if all of them would be good for Android and iPhone. So it’s cool. It’s good to know.

Shanna Micko: It’s totally cool.

Laura Birek: Awesome.

Shanna Micko: Is that our episode?

Laura Birek: I think it is. I think you need to go feed the baby.

Shanna Micko: I do. It’s that time and I’ll set my timer with my Feed Baby App.

Laura Birek: Yes.

Shanna Micko: Yay! All right, Laura. Good to talk to you.

Laura Birek: Nice talking to you too. Thanks everyone for listening.

Shanna Micko: Thank you. If you have any questions or comments, we’ve been just loving all the feedback and questions and comments we’ve been getting. So definitely feel free to hit us up at any time with anything. Laura, where can they find us?

Laura Birek: We’re on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at BFP Podcast. There’s also a Facebook community group you can join and then we have a website, bigfatpositivepodcast.com, where we post show notes and direct links to our episodes.

Shanna Micko: Big Fat Positive is produced by Laura Birek, Shanna Micko and Steve Yager.

Laura Birek: Thanks for listening, everyone.

Shanna Micko: See you next week.

Laura Birek: Bye.

Shanna Micko: Bye.

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